Transcript
Matt Meyer:
You're listening to RadioEd…
Emma Atkinson:
A University of Denver podcast…
Matt Meyer:
We’re your hosts, Matt Meyer…
Emma Atkinson:
And Emma Atkinson.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
By now, we’re all familiar with Zoom. Like, really familiar. Many of us have spent hours sitting in front of our computers, watching our bosses and colleagues—from the shoulders up, of course—speaking and laughing and presenting. It’s been an interesting task, to say the least, to adjust to these kinds of interactions.
And now, there’s another kind of virtual communication approach on the horizon—well, not exactly on the horizon. The technology has actually been around for quite some time. I’ll let my source, University of Denver business professor Kerry Mitchell explain.
But first, a note: This episode includes some details about sexual harassment that may be upsetting to some listeners.
Here’s Mitchell.
Kerry Mitchell:
The term Metaverse actually came out in the 1990s, and it was more of like a learning platform. But then we also heard about the metaverse. It was in a book in 1992 snowpack. Sorry. So crash said that wrong. And then we started hearing more about it in different ways. And then actually, about 2003, I think is when Second Life happened. So I'm not sure if you have heard of Second Life. But that's an online platform very similar to the metaverse, only it wasn't 3D virtual reality; it was just a computer program that’s actually still around. And that was the first place where we started seeing avatars in meetings. So it's been around in that kind of form for quite a while.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
Mitchell, an assistant teaching professor at the University of Denver’s Daniels School of Business, teaches and studies strategic business communication, organizational behavior and human resources. Basically, how people lead and behave in workplace settings, particularly corporate ones.
Today we’re talking all about how the metaverse and virtual reality technology are changing the way we work. First off, let’s define the metaverse. Or at least try to.
Kerry Mitchell:
It's such a good question, because there isn't one definitive definition. But most people will say it's more of a fully digitalized world. Not completely different than the internet just sort of expanding on what's already there by providing new opportunities. So that's where you see all the different realities, augmented reality, virtual reality. So making things more 3d, but it's still going to be using the internet. So just a bigger expansion of that some people refer to it as web 3.0. But it's just a part of it. So really, just living your life in a digital way.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
If you’re new to this whole metaverse thing, try imagining it as a video game. You’re essentially “playing,” so to speak, as an avatar or character. It’s what kids do all day long. The metaverse is like a wholly immersive video game, with many users using a headset to enhance the experience. It’s all around you.
Emma Atkinson:
So, living your life in a digital way. Obviously, we've got, you know, living at home and playing games and interacting with your friends. How does living your life at your workplace in a digital way? How does that work?
Kerry Mitchell:
Yeah, so I don't know that we have the exact answer yet, because it's still progressing. But right now, what we're seeing is a lot of companies are using it for what seems most obvious is a meeting. So it's the next step from zoom, where everyone's been on Zoom or other platforms like that. But instead of having all the little boxes and squares, now you can be at a table, or you could be in a conference room, or you can be on a beach. And so there's different ways you can have the avatars. Some companies are doing it just still just as heads, but they're in a different spot, like at a table other Yeah, you can actually be on the beach, and you have your own avatar, and you're hanging out on the beach. So that's how we're seeing it most right now is in terms of meetings, but there's also things like team building. There's all kinds of things that they're doing just where people used to collaborate. So using it for a lot of different collaborating in different ways as well.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
Imagine that! Playing a video game at work! It sounds a little…infantile. But the metaverse could actually be an important tool that companies use to engage their employees, to keep them interested and satisfied with their jobs. One thing that companies have to consider, however, is the wide age range of the workforce. It could be a challenge to get all employees excited to use metaverse technology.
Kerry Mitchell:
A lot of it, I think, is really going to just depend on who your employee base is. So certainly, we see younger generations, if you have a very young workplace who are more familiar with gaming and using different avatars, that's probably going to be more enjoyment for them. And again, I don't want to say everything's generational. I'm using a very general term here. Meaning those who have grown up playing with that others who have it and get it might be generational, just those who haven't seen that. It's going to be harder to switch from your whole self to something that you can't necessarily imagine as an avatar. And that might people make make people feel more uncomfortable. So a lot of it is going to depend Who your employee base is? And that's gonna be age range, but also interests? Are there people who are tech savvy, versus those who aren't those kinds of things.
Emma Atkinson:
Right, that's a super important point. I think what you bring up is, is the different generations who might be using this technology. And what are some best practices and kind of getting everybody on board with such a foreign and new technology?
Kerry Mitchell:
It's hard, it's going to be really difficult for some companies to get some employees to do this unless they really have a benefit. So a lot of the employees that I've seen, again, younger ones who've grown up with the gaming who've done some VR, they're really more excited about it, those who haven't seen it, sometimes don't understand why we need a virtual world. And to them, it seems very foreign. So it's giving them that benefit, because it does have a big learning curve. And there are people who get sick, motion sickness, things like that. So you have to really give them a reason as to why they should try it. And so it has to be really different. And I think that's where you're seeing things moving from just a regular board meeting to Let's have a meeting on the beach, thinking that if it's enough different, maybe you can draw some more interest. But again, you have to know your employees to know if that's going to work. So best practices again, really, I don't know that we have any yet. But the main thing is really to go back to what's gonna give them enjoyment. What's their motivation? If that helps.
Emma Atkinson:
Remote work boomed during the pandemic because of necessity. And, you know, people not wanting to spread the virus obviously, did usage of the metaverse also boom, during the pandemic, is that something that companies turn to as remote work skyrocketed?
Kerry Mitchell:
I would say the usage definitely grew. From what I've seen, I wouldn't say it was as much as let's say, like zoom, we have almost every company using a platform like that, I would definitely say there's a few more tech companies who wanted to try it out and see how it went. And then we have some big firms. Accenture, for example, is a big company who did want to try it, but like 60,000 headsets, I can't remember the exact number, but something like that for all their employees to try it. But that I wouldn't say it's the norm, I would say was still cost prohibitive. So some companies wanted to try it, especially those who said they were going to go fully remote already knowing that some who weren't ready for that commitment didn't jump on quite as much. So they're definitely growth, but not as high as something like a Zoom.
Emma Atkinson:
Can you tell me about some research in terms of, I guess, just broadly about about the drawbacks and pluses of using the metaverse in the workplace?
Kerry Mitchell:
So most like academic research, is going to be looking at more specific things such as how two groups form? So it's not necessarily a pro con. But looking at, is there a higher trust level? Does it take longer for the groups to form? There's certainly a lot on the marketing side. There's a lot of companies, Chipotle vans, companies like that are already using it for marketing and branding. And that seems to be going well. So there's research on how effective is there? But in terms of just do people like it, do they not? Are there advantages versus disadvantages? There is some research on that that's mostly going to be more company, done, if that makes sense. That early just depends, there's so many factors. So obviously, do have a safe space.
So that's a big piece is the headsets, like I have the Oculus, and it will tell you what kind of space you need. But if people don't do that, and they put their headset on and stand up in there next to a couch. Yeah, they're likely to run into it. So some people we have to think is what user error versus what's the system. And then all of these things that we're still coming up with, like the bullying, the racism, the hate speech. Right now, I think some people are gonna say that's not worth it. Some people might say it is depending on how much they're encountering. So if you go into the public places, I would say the cons, you know, are gonna be a little bit more highlighted. If you're in a workspace where you're at, expect it to be professional, it can still happen, but not to the same degree. So even as we look at pros and cons, there's all these little factors of which platform are you using? Are you going into public places or your company places? So there's a lot of questions like that, that we're still trying to explore that we don't have answers for yet.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
There is some research out there that suggests employers are more excited about using the metaverse than their employees. A recent survey by ExpressVPN showed that 77% of employers expressed interest in immersive work environments, while just 57% of employees said the same.
Emma Atkinson:
What is some of the most interesting research that you've seen, would you say?
Kerry Mitchell:
So some of the interesting research that that fascinates me. And there's, again, there's so much out there, but one that they started more with Second Life, and they're starting to get a little bit more now is what we call the Proteus effect. And that was by KOVITCH and Bailenson. And it was going back to like, 2010 2011. So it's been around for a while. But part of what they studied was trying to see if people in the virtual world how they react to their real life. So for example, if you pick an avatar that is human, and it's weighs less than you do in real life, they found people were actually more likely to lose weight, in real life, to be more like their avatar. So there's a lot of different studies where they found things like that, that to me, it's kind of fascinating, and how they influence and how does that impact your identity? Do we start to be more related to our online selves? Or the reality? And how do we mix those? So that to me is interesting. But there's certainly a whole realm for marketing and group behavior. How we build teams, how we build trust, there's all kinds of things out there.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
As with any new communication platform, there are going to be people who abuse the technology. A Business Insider piece from earlier this year details the account of a Meta (formerly Facebook) employee who says her virtual avatar was raped in the metaverse.
According to a report by a nonprofit advocacy group, one woman’s avatar was reportedly in a virtual room with a couple of male avatars, some of whom are, quote-unquote, “drinking alcohol.” Remember—this is all virtual. No one is actually, physically in the same room as one another or actually consuming alcohol.
I’ll read an excerpt from the report here about one woman’s experience. We’ll call her Jane.
“[Jane] reported being, quote, “virtually gang raped” within 60 seconds of logging on the platform by a group of 3-4 male-appearing avatars. [Jane] was, quote, “groped aggressively” and “verbally and sexually harassed,” becoming a target for suggestive and lewd remarks due to her avatar’s outwardly female appearance.”
Harassment like that is a grotesque and inexcusable problem, especially in the workplace. So how will companies prevent it?
Emma Atkinson:
Right now, I want to go back to something you touched on, which is abuse of the metaverse, right sexism, racism, you know, we've, we've heard about even recently in the last few months last year or so employees that have abused the metaverse and, and victimized some of their some of their colleagues in this virtual world. How can corporate communicators or people looking to integrate the metaverse into their workplaces? How do you go about preventing that?
Kerry Mitchell:
Yeah, so that's a complicated question that I get, I'm not sure anyone has the right answer for. So even on the individual side, Facebook has spent a lot of money trying to have moderators. But again, they're finding it's very difficult. You have to catch people doing it, you have to turn it in, you have to have a whole system. So now in organizations, we have same kind of thing, who's monitoring it who's going to turn it in, and I have to create a bunch more human resource policies. So that's part of it is it has to be a policy. And that's why some organizations are a little hesitant to use that where there was even again, this is going way back to when they had Second Life. But there are even things where like, one colleague killed another's avatar. And so is that considered a crime and if so, is it Is that something the organization needs? to worry about. So those are some things that are coming back up again. So of course, some platforms are safer than others, some won't allow certain behaviors, some have certain rules. So that's one piece is you have to make sure you pick the right platform. So the metaverse is big, and that often, people think of that as Facebook's meta. But there's so many more platforms out there. And all of them are a little bit different. So part of it is choosing the right platform and then putting in those policies. So just like we have we learned with things like Facebook, and then slack, and some of these other communication tools, you had to put rules and guidelines and policies around it. We're finding the same thing.
Emma Atkinson:
Okay. Right. And correct me if I'm wrong, but more policies means, like you said, more HR. And that means more money, right? Yeah. And obviously, VR and augmented reality, and, you know, getting into the metaverse, that's expensive on its own right. Yeah. So is that at this point prohibitively expensive? You know, how does the money factor into whether an organization decides to take this on?”
Kerry Mitchell:
It's a huge factor. And again, it depends on what the organization's goal is. So certainly with Facebook because or meta, because they do what to get more people involved. They have one of the cheaper headsets with the Oculus quest, and Oculus quest two, which is 299. So you're looking at that basic cost, other ones that are less floaty. So one of the critiques of Meta, for example, have been that it's just your floating body, there's no legs, other ones that have that capability and have better pixel quality, more photographic, those could go up to $5,000 for a headset. So we're looking at a huge range there to begin with just for the equipment, and then you have to worry about things like bandwidth. So again, if you are having remote employees do you have to pay for different bandwidth? And then on top of that, you have to put some of those employee costs, like how do we police? What people are doing? And how do we put those policies in? And do we need some people in human resources to moderate that? So it can be very prohibitive? And that's one thing that a lot of companies have talked about is what's equity? You know, how do we make it equal for all employees? As well as other companies, too big issue?”
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
There are pros and cons to the metaverse, along with a myriad of solutions and a seemingly endless potential for use.
Emma Atkinson:
Okay, so, big picture: Is meeting in the metaverse the future of work?
Kerry Mitchell:
It's such a difficult question, because there's so many different types of work. And I would say eventually, how close in the future I don't know that's going to be, I would say to be the near near future five years, probably not. There's too too many issues, like we talked about with the costs. There's still issues where people get motion sickness, and so you can't force employees to be sick. If you're using the meta equipment, their headsets can only be plugged in for two hours. And then you have to decide they call it plug and play if you want to do that, which can be dangerous. There's also a lot of consequences like that. So I don't think we see it in the form it is that we visualize it. Now, a lot of companies, including Meta have talked about different headsets that are a little more user friendly. So I think if as we move towards that, and that technology comes, we'll be more likely to move that direction. And it has to be cheaper right now, not all companies, especially small businesses, can't afford that. And then if we want employees to be ready, you have to think about universities, you have to talk about high schools, we have to think about all these other ways. How are we going to fund all of that? So there's definitely some questions as to how fast we can move there. But it might be so a lot of other companies if we get out of just the metaverse, as Mehta has talked about it, there are some companies who are working more like holograms. And so I see that's more of the future where you don't have to have the headset on. Or even meta has talked about trying to do something more like that, where you don't have to have the headset because it makes some people uncomfortable. There's obviously a lot more injuries. If you've ever seen the headsets are on you don't know where you're at people are getting hurt. So there's there's definitely some things that I think that would prohibit people from getting all the way there. But I do see some of these other holograms that are going to be, again, just an extension. They're not going to be brand new, but an extension. I think we'll see more that's going to be more than future.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
Holograms. That means that, unlike with Zoom, you’d have to put real pants on to work from home. There are many more uses for virtual reality technology than those in the workplace. And Mitchell says while we may not see a metaverse boom, there are plenty of directions that the metaverse could take us.
Kerry Mitchell:
I do a lot of teaching with public speaking. So we're trying to see if you use virtual reality, we have a program right now. And you're immersing people in it doesn't help with anxiety. And we've seen other people who have tried it just for various things like chronic illness, it's helped things like even just experimenting with sexual identity. They've used it in studies for those people who would possibly have been at have amputated limb and trying that out as a virtual avatar first. So there's definitely some good uses that I don't think get the focus as much as all of the bad things. But we're trying to do that. So that's one thing I would say is that there are some good things out there. The other thing I would say is people need to somewhat be prepared and think about it, because I do think it's going to grow. Like I said, it might not be in the future, five years from now. But as we start seeing more people getting involved, even just on the gaming side, they're going to expect to do some of that at school and work and things like that. So I would definitely just say might not be as fast as people think. But definitely there's some shifts coming. And the last thing is, again, if I can always do a plug is at Daniel's, we also have a new program starting next year, that is Masters of Science in digital leadership. And these are the things that they're going to be exploring is how do we lead in those kinds of worlds? Because leadership is going to be very different. I think how we relate to people in person versus how we do it in a virtual world. And like you asked about best practices, we don't have all that yet. So we're trying to research we're trying to figure it all out, and it's gonna take a little while to get there.
Emma Atkinson (voiceover):
Once again, that’s DU business professor Kerry Mitchell. For more information on her work and the sources used in this episode, check out our show notes at du.edu/radioed. Tamara Chapman is our managing editor. James Swearingen arranged our theme. I’m Emma Atkinson, and this is RadioEd.
